FamilyLife Today®

What if He Doesn’t Love Me? Brian Goins & Ed Uszynski

with Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski | January 5, 2024
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Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski empathize with feeling unloved in your own marriage. Find ideas for stronger connection and deeper intimacy together.

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Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski empathize with feeling unloved in your own marriage. Find ideas for stronger connection and deeper intimacy.

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What if He Doesn’t Love Me? Brian Goins & Ed Uszynski

With Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski
January 05, 2024
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Shelby: Hey, this is Shelby Abbott. I just wanted to take a second to thank you if you gave to our matching program that happened in December. You know, checks are still coming in and we don't have all the numbers yet, but if you gave, I sincerely want to say how grateful I am for your generosity to help make FamilyLife Today possible. Thank you so much for giving and supporting this ministry. And even if you didn't give and you've just shared episodes with someone, or even if you just listened, thank you for being a part of FamilyLife Today.

Alright, let's jump into today's episode.

Brian: I get to moments where I'm not liking you right now, for whatever reason. There could be all kinds. Maybe it's not time—

Ann: Yes.

Brian: Maybe it's, you know, “I'm not focused.” Maybe it's “We've got whatever,” this, that, or the other and for the for the person that goes, “I don't naturally do that” and you could say that about all the five different love languages, right? I don't naturally want to give gifts. I don't naturally want to because that's not what I feel.

Ed: —to talk. I'm not a big words person.

Brian: Yes, I'm not a big words person, so what do you tell that couple, whether it's nonsexual touch or something else; when you don't feel like it, what's going to propel you to get over that feeling?

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today. This is the “Ed and Brian’s Great Adventure Show.” [Laughter] Isn’t that what it is?

Ann: That's where it started yesterday.

Dave: Yes; I mean, we’ve got Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski—there I said it right—

Ed: Well done.

Dave: —back in the studio.

Brian: It's good to feel known, isn't it?

Ed: Yes, it feels so much better. [Laughter]

Dave: Yes, yes, I try to get it right.

Brian: Well, yesterday we talked a little bit about—

Dave: Wait, wait; are you guys taking over again?

Brian: Yes.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: Yes, we already said that, Dave. Yesterday we said we're taking over.

Ed: Brian and Ed’s Great Adventure.

Brian: This is our show.

Ann: He’s forgotten.

Brian: Yes, okay, what are we talking about?

Ed: I don't even know.

Brian: We're talking about where we left yesterday. They were talking about their story that was in the first Art of Marriage that has really impacted and touched so many people's hearts and lives and really changed a lot of trajectories in marriage. It was about a time and a season in their marriage where they just didn't like each other. Let’s be real. You just did not like each other, didn't like living in the same house together.

I think there's a lot of us that have been through those seasons. And how do you get out of that, number one, and then two, have you found that you've been in other seasons where it's kind of, it comes back around? Is it like now that you had that story, has it been bliss ever since?

Ed: Yes, yes.

Ann: Yes! [Laughter] I honestly think everybody goes through those seasons. Life is hard. We all go through trauma. We go through really hard things with our kids, with our parents, and I think we get burned out. I think it's easy to drift not only from one another, from God, and I think that that has an impact on our feelings. And so, looking back, I think we've been through a few of those valleys; do you?

Dave: Yes, and you know people that listen to us here on FamilyLife® have heard our journey—

Ann: —out of it.

Dave: —many times but one of the pivotal moments, and I'll cut to the chase, is I felt like she didn't like me, for a long time. And the story that we've told even on Vertical Marriage is basically, I said to her one day, “I feel like everywhere I go I get applauded, but when I come home, I get booed.” Like “People out there think I'm good at what I do, and they want me around. When I come home, I feel like you think I'm not a good husband and not a good dad, blah, blah, blah.”

All I'm saying is this; something happened in our marriage out of that hard conversation—and it wasn't in a week or even a month, over maybe a year or so—she started to speak affirmation and belief and trust and life. She called something out of me that wasn't even there yet, that I think I rose up to. And I think that's how we are as men. It's like “You believe in me? I’m not as good as you're saying I am, but I can be,” and so we sort of step up.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: I mean, it's been decades now, and I feel like I walk in the house. I'm like, “This woman loves me. She thinks I'm awesome.”

Ann: Where I am now is I love him but a lot of times I think you feel like I don't have time for you. And I feel like I don't have time,

Ed: You mean right, even now, right now.

Ann: Right now; right now, yes. You think that when your kids are gone, it's like, “Yes, this is amazing,” and it is for a while. And then your kids have grandkids. I'm feeling the weight of that, like, I want to be a good grandparent. I want to mark them. I want to disciple them in some ways, if our kids let us. And so, it's easy to always put marriage on a back burner.

Dave: That is real right now.

Ann: —for us.

Dave: In our marriage, we're empty nesters, we're working hard, and there's a lot of hours. But when we get back to Michigan where two of our grandkids are, and then four others are in in Denver, I feel like her heart is with the grandkids. We've had hard conversations—

Ann: It is there.

Dave: —like, “Do you care about me?”

Ed: Have you been able to articulate what you would want from Ann though to make—

Ann: This is what you're doing. You're our therapist today and you're going to help us. [Laughter]

Ed: Can we have Dave lay on the couch back there?

Brian: That's right.

Dave: I can do that.

Brian: Because I'm agreeing with that, this is what I want to know is like—because I think there's a lot of couples, and I know I feel this with Jen, is I get to moments where I'm not liking you right now—for whatever reason. There could be all kinds. Maybe it's not time—

Ann: Yes.

Brian: Maybe it's, you know, “I'm not focused.” Maybe it's “We've got whatever,” this, that, or the other. The question is, how do you articulate that so that the other person hears it? So how have you guys had to learn how to navigate that in the different seasons of your life to where—I mean do you feel the freedom, Dave, to share “I'm feeling like I'm on the back burner right now in our relationship?”

Ed: You're saying it to us and millions of other people. Have you ever actually just directly said it—

Ann: —he generally says it in front of other people. [Laughter]

Brian: Oh, nice. So, that's why you guys are FamilyLife Today hosts, so that you can do your own therapy on air.

Ed: You guys got to talk. Why don't you talk to each other?

Dave: I think we've had several non-confrontational, like, “Can we talk about this?” I really do feel like you'll drop anything for the grandkids. I feel bad bringing it up because I want her to, and I want to, too. It's like, this is awesome. But it's like, sometimes I feel like “Here I am and I'm not that important anymore.” I thought these would be the glory days. We're in the empty nest days and now we're just grandparents, which is awesome. And again, I love it, and I love when they come over, but there are times where I like, I feel like I lost my wife.

Ed: Yes.

Ann: I think that every listener that is a working mom can feel this because she has a sense of guilt, like, “You're going to be there, but our kids are growing up and they need me.” I think families that are blended feel this, like, “Our kids have just been through some big traumatic things and so our relationship can wait for a while I take care of our kids.” I think this is a real thing for moms because we have this instinctual like, “I'm going to protect my people.” And the bad thing is that I can put Dave on a back burner.

Ed: So, what would you say to yourself? And this could reverse too, right?

Dave: Right, right.

Ed: I mean, sometimes it's the woman that feels like “You're not giving any attention to me,” right?

Dave: Oh, it’s your job and all kinds of things.

Ann: I’m finding the roles kind of reverse, where in the early years it’s the husband, the job, all the things he's doing.

Ed: Interesting.

Ann: And then I'm talking to like my brothers. They're complaining about the same thing so it's kind of this reversal that's really interesting.

Ed: How are you—how do you coach yourself? What do you say to yourself? And Dave, what do you even—are you saying to yourself that you need to do this again? You just said it in front of everybody but how are you—how are you coaching yourself through meeting each other in the middle of that somewhere?

Dave: You really are trying to do therapy, honestly.

Ann: I love it.

Ed: I think people want to hear this, man.

Brian: This is why we're here. We're on behalf of the people [Laughter] asking things they wanted to know.

Ed: We’re pulling back the curtain.

Brian: That’s right.

Dave: I mean my first thought is, and we're doing it, talk about it, share your honest feelings, try to do it in a non-escalating way. And I think we've been able to do that. And then part of the action set for us is can we talk about what a schedule will look like that is a little balance where I do feel valued, you feel valued if I'm doing the same thing and yet the grandkids feel value because I want to be with them.

Ed: Because that's real, yes.

Dave: But there are times I'm like, “I just think we need a break.” I think she would go until she emotionally collapses.

Ann: —or physically.

Dave: She doesn't care about herself. She cares about them.

Ann: —and everybody else.

Dave: And so, I'm, in some ways as a husband, I’m like “I want to protect you. This is too much. Please just”—and she's—

Brian: Yes, so sometimes it's not even about you necessarily. It's like “I'm watching you.” I think a lot of us don't realize this as spouses, is that like when Jen will point something out to me, like, I'm running too hard or I'm not emoting. I'm like “We never go out anymore.” She might say something that comes off as like an attack.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: And in reality, I need to pull back and go, “Wait, what blind spot is she pointing out?” That she's frustrated by. She's probably communicated in different ways, but I haven't been listening, and so it's good just to not have that defensive mode and say, “Okay, what”—

Ed: What can I hear?

Brian: Yes, what do I need to hear?

Dave: Do you guys remember in The Meaning of Marriage, Tim Keller 's book years ago about marriage, he says one of the purposes of marriage—and we talked about this in the Weekend to Remember—is to sharpen one another. And he says the goal of the Christian life is become like Christ and that's not going to happen until we're standing in front of Christ face to face. He calls it your glory selves. Do you remember this?

Brian: Yes.

Dave: He says until then we're getting closer to being like Jesus, but we're not going to be there. And he says God gave you a gift. He gave you a spouse that can help sharpen you to become like your glory self. So anytime Ann’s saying something that's hard for me to hear, I’ve got to have that perspective. Like “I need this.” She's only making me better even though it may be hard, and she may not even say it in a gentle way, it's still a gift. You know, like, “Okay, I can receive this, or I can be a jerk.”

Ed: That's good.

Dave: And if I'm a jerk, I'm never going to get closer to what Christ wants me to be, but if I receive it, I can be a better man.

Ann: And I think I've matured now to the point where I'm not just reacting, I'm tending to respond more. So, I'll usually take a few days to think about it. And my prayer is “God, what do you want me to know?” And I'll sit on that for a little bit. Is there anything I'm missing? Is there anything I— And then, “What do you want me to do?” So those two things. And sometimes I'll take a minute, like, “What's this look like?”

And then to have that conversation with Dave. If I've waited a couple days, I can talk in a way that he can hear. I can communicate in a way that you'll respond, and so I think that's been big for us. And I know, like I know this is going on in our relationship and Dave generally won't say anything because you tend to pull away from it and so he's just waiting for me to come back.

Ed: Is a couple days frustrating to you? Would you do it, would you want it sooner in the way you're wired or are you okay with it being a couple of days?

Dave: I mean now I know the journey, but yes, years ago I'd be like, “Come on, what”—

Ed: Let’s go.

Dave: “How much time do you need?” I was just, I was just a jerk.

Ann: But would you? I feel like you are kind of avoiding it.

Dave: Well, if I was really feeling it, I'm after her, in a bad way.

Ann: And that's what I used to do with you.

Dave: Yes, and it was like two yelling people. We don't yell much anymore, but I realized she needs time. I need time. We're going to talk.

Brian: You know now that it sounds like I'm hearing you say, “We've learned to not react, as much as just respond, give each other space, believe the best about what the other person is communicating,” is there anything else that you wish you would have started earlier in marriage that you feel like you are kind of matured into?

Ann: One of the things that has really helped me over the years too, is having a friend to dialogue about it—a safe friend, somebody that loves Jesus, somebody that knows me. It took a while to find that friend but man, when we would walk and talk it through, I was a different person by the end. It's basically free therapy. You're just talking it through, and therapy helps too, like talk this through; to have just somebody with different eyes on the situation. And you have to have a friend that will speak the truth in love.

Ed: Okay.

Ann: Because a lot of friends will be like, “Oh, that's terrible. I feel so bad.” I need somebody if I need to hear it—and my friend would say that, like, “You need to talk to Dave.”

Ed: Yes.

Ann: “And tell me what you're going to say. How are you going to go about that? What's that look like?”

Ed: Good.

Ann: I love those good friends.

Ed: To own your whole—I mean that's in The Art of Marriage, right?

Ann: That's right.

Ed: —where JP talks about needing to own your two percent, own one hundred percent of your two percent, whatever that is.

Ann: That’s good.

Ed: You need friends that will encourage you to do that. Empathize—

Ann: Yes, but—

Ed: You need to go back and do something different.

Brian: Just maybe, if you have a friend that's constantly actually making more, Dave more of an enemy—

Ed: Or like going “Hey, you know that girl”—

Ann: “I told you to never marry him.”

Brian: “I'm just pointing out other things, and not only that but I've seen Dave do this and this and this.” You know, then you go, “Okay, wait a second. That's probably not the friend.” You know, what is it? Faithful are the wounds from a friend, and so if I'm communicating something real about my life and all I hear is, “Well, you just need to make sure that person changes,” right, probably not the wisest friend in the world.

Ed: Jesus probably isn't in that.

Brian: No.

Dave: You know what my first thought was? Nonsexual touch—kissing, hugging, holding hands, affection.

Ann: Are we going to go there? This is exciting!

Dave: I mean, I just thought “Let’s be real.” That is not a big part of our marriage, and I would have started that years ago. I need to start it now. You know what I mean?

Brian: I was going to say, is it still a part?

Dave: It’s just like—

Ed: Why Dave? Why?

Dave: I know that I want to say she needs it and I know that she does and feels loved by that. Her family was very non-affectionate, so she sort of grew up thinking that’s sort of the way it is. I was—never had relationship with my dad and my mom was affectionate and it sort of bugged me. Like she’d kiss my buddies coming in at high school and kiss them. You know she walked in, I’m like, “Mom, leave them alone.” And so, I think I sort of went “Eh,” but I'm not an affectionate person with her and so she'll feel used when I want to be intimate sexually. Like, we haven't touched, we haven't kissed and now out of the—cold hand out of the dark, you know?

Ed: Yes.

Dave: And so, I think it's an important part of a marriage that I'm just being honest that I need to do better at. And I think it would mean the world to her. She deserves to feel loved in a non-sexual, intimate way.

Ann: Well, and because of my past, the only time I ever was touched was sexually, as a little kid. And I think what happened in our early years of marriage, Dave would touch me, I would recoil a little bit, but then I always said “I know what you want. I know why you're touching me.” But it makes me sad because I think that also made you pull back and not even touch me.

Dave: Yes, I was afraid; you get afraid. Man, we're being honest now. But it was, it's been—I mean we’re 43 years in and it's still a journey in that area.

Brian: Yes, so in this season do you feel like it's something, what I'm hearing you say is “I'm still needing to do this.”

Dave: Yes.

Ann: Yes.

Brian: And for the for the person that goes, like you even said it, “I don't naturally do that.” And you could say that about all the five different love languages, right? I don't naturally want to give gifts. I don’t naturally want to because that's not what I feel.

Ed: —to talk. I'm not a big words person.

Brian: Yes, I'm not a big words person so what do you tell that couple, whether it's nonsexual touch or something else, that when you don't feel like it, what's going to propel you to get over that feeling?


Dave: I mean, my first thought is you got to just do it. Because it's the same thing I'm saying about Ann. My sons would say the same thing. Hug me, you know. Hug me more. I'm not a hugger. There used to be a joke at our church that the other pastor Steve is this big hugger. “Hey, Steve’s the hugger. Dave’s not the hugger.” And I was used to like “Yes, that's good. That's what men are.” Now I'm like “That's not good.” I want them to go, “Dave and Steve both hug.”—

Ed: Nice.

Dave: —rather than ones one and that's on me and it's just a “Do it.” It's the right thing.

Ann: I remember as I was growing up—which wasn't a Christian home, but my parents were great people—every day my dad would walk in the door, he'd see my mom, he'd grab her—grab her butt—and kiss her on the mouth.

Brian: And that scarred you as a kid. [Laughter] You left that out.

Ann: It was the best thing ever.

Ed: Is that nonsexual touch? [Laughter]

Ann: I don't know. I didn't know what sexual touch was, but I just thought “That is the sweetest thing.” I can't tell you the amount of security that gave me as a little girl, like, he loves her, he really loves her. And I just thought, “That is a great picture of marriage,” and I couldn't wait to have that as a woman getting married. I think we just get lazy; we get hurt; we get bitter. And sometimes we need to make those moves out of—

Dave: —obedience.

Ann: —not out of feeling, but out of our will.

Dave: Yes, obedience.

Ed: Yes. One of the things Brian and I talk about is not being stingy with our praise like we could. I'm thinking these positive thoughts about Amy. Why am I not saying them out loud to her? Right? And don't be stingy with your affection, with your touch. Don't be stingy with that.

Dave: That's good.

Ed: Because when they're not here you won't be able to do it anymore.

Ann: It could be an act of worship. “Jesus, this isn't natural for me. I need your power to do this; remind me.

Ed: Good.

Ann: And I think Jesus is like, “I will. I will.”

Ed: That's good, Ann.

Brian: That's really good. Man, we could do this all week. I mean you know we could keep—in fact, if there's any—

Ed: Should we have them back on our show? [Laughter]

Brian: That's right. If there’s any listeners out there and they’re going “We would love Brian and Ed.”

Dave: Hey guys, it’s not your show.

Ed: Put that in the evaluation.

Brian: Yes, put that in your evaluation and we'll come back on.

I did want to close with this because you guys have said a lot—I don’t know if it's in Vertical Marriage or you've written so much stuff and communicated so many things—is it escape, escape annually? What do you guys, what do you guys say? You have a withdrawal weekly.

Ann: Retreat.

Dave: Well, I mean we stole it from Rick Warren—

Brian: Okay.

Dave: —back in the Purpose Driven Life thing and we changed it for marriage. But his initial thing was if you want to develop your intimacy with God, it was, divert daily, so once a day, quiet time. Divert daily, withdraw weekly—Sabbath, pull away, rest—and abandon annually, so get away and do a retreat. We just took that and said for marriage, let's do this: pray daily, date weekly, retreat annually.

Brian: Okay.

Dave: So, the Weekend to Remember is part of that. Get away once a year, go to the Weekend to Remember. Even the weekly thing, date weekly, could be Art of Marriage. It could be, hey, do this together as a couple, maybe with another couple, maybe with several couples. But then every day, what would it look like if you actually prayed out loud together as a couple?

Brian: Yes, so on a scale of one to ten, Dave— [Laughter]

Dave: Oh no, here we go. We're not doing the scale one to ten.

Brian: Yes, we are. I'm paying you back. On a scale of one to ten, how well are you guys doing in those three areas?

Dave: All I know is it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what she thinks.

Brian: That's right. Ann, on a scale of one to ten, how are you guys doing? How's Dave specifically doing?

Dave: Because my number is always higher.

Ann: I'd give you; I'd give us a nine on that.

Dave: On which one?

Brian: On those three?

Ann: All of them. Yes, I feel like we do those pretty consistently.

Ed: Nice.

Brian: So even as empty nesters, you've kept trying to be consistent with that. I know it's not always perfect, but you even were saying that like one of the best things for your season, right, because you're so busy grandparenting, busy with ministry, busy with being in this host for this show which we can give you a break. Ed and I can come in and be guest hosts for you now. [Laughter] Would you—

Dave: You’ve got to wear that red shirt. [Laughter]

Brian: You're saying that some of the sweetest times for you in this season of your life have been actually that abandoning annually. Tell us about that.

Ann: Absolutely.

Dave: Yes, I mean Ann demanded that when the kids were little and then it was a vacation.

Ann: Well, I just needed a vacation.

Dave: She just said, “We need to do this as a family.” I grew up in a family, I took one vacation my whole life—

Ed: Wow,

Dave: —with my mom when I was in high school. It was because we didn't have any money and so I resisted it, mainly financially, we can't afford it. And she said, “We're doing this,” and it was some of the greatest memories.

And now after the kids are gone, we're like, “We're doing this every year.”

Ann: But even when the kids were there, we'd have family vacation, but then we'd have a relationship time.

Dave: And it's one of the best things.

Ed: A relationship vacation.

Dave: And we do it. You don't have to spend a ton of money. There’re ways to do it pretty inexpensively. But those three or four days are rich.

Ed: What do you do on those three or four days?

Dave: We rest. I'll say this, we were sitting on a beach in Mexico one year—and again we just go somewhere cheap, all-inclusive so you don't have to think about paying for everything—and she turns to me as we're sitting looking at sunset and she says, “Dave Wilson, I would marry you all over again.”

Ed: Yes, I like that.

Dave: And here's what I thought. She's not saying that in the hustle and bustle of a normal week but sitting there restful, you're allowed these moments that go—

Ed: Clarity.

Dave: —"I'm thankful.” And you don't feel that when you're just this, so you have—that's why God said the Sabbath is a ten commandment. It's really important for our marriage.

Brian: And it is a gift. Jesus said this is a gift. It's a gift for a man. It's not a duty for us to show to God that we're actually trying to you know be devoted to Him. It's a gift to man so that we could actually do what you're just saying, get clarity.

Dave: Yes.

Ed: It’s so good.

Brian: —get clarity on a relationship, get clarity on God, on each other. It's just, and what's important in life. And so, if you're not doing that, that's one of the things I love about when you guys talk about those three things. You know, if you're not checking in daily with each other and having a good moment just to even have a quick prayer with each other if you're not withdrawing weekly, in your relationship, and it doesn't have to be this expensive date night. It could be—Jen and I like to have coffee in the morning and just connect.

But then I think what I'm hearing from you guys, like make it a priority, invest in it, get away annually.

Ann: Yes.

Ed: And pick one. Because maybe somebody's listening and we’re not doing any of the three right now; that can just be overwhelming.

Dave: Just pick one.

Ed: Pick one and do it.

Brian: Yes.

Ann: Guys, thanks for being the hosts for FamilyLife Today.

Ed: This is so good.

Brian: We look forward to replacing you guys one day. [Laughter]

Ed: We're working on it behind your back.

Brian: Yes, that's right.

Ann: I like it.

Dave: So, sort of our theme verse for the year is Psalm 34:8, “Taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!” And I tell you, sitting here reflecting on Brian and Ed's time with us, it was—wasn’t it interesting? They flipped the tables and we thought we were going to interview them and here we are talking about our marriage and what God's been teaching us.

Ann: How do you feel about all that? How do you feel about like we were pretty raw about what's going on right now?

Dave: I don't know why I feel good. I should feel bad. We were sort of sharing some struggles we're going through. We're supposed to be 43 years in and have this all down. [Laughter]

Ann: No one ever has it all down.

Dave: But I think, do you feel this way? I feel good, because it's healthy to speak out loud the victories and, you know, the valleys.

Ann: Yes, I think so too.

Dave: Because I think we're on a journey. It's like this isn't bad. It's like we’re growing.

Ann: When you read the scripture, I think there's a lot of ups and downs and yet in every part of the scripture, just like this Psalm 34, when you taste and see, when you really look deep into it, isn't He good? Like God is good that He's walked us through these years? They haven't been perfect, but they've been good.

Dave: Yes, and that's where we find safety and refuge; that's protection.

Ann: So as a listener, like, remember that; maybe you put Psalm 34:8, like wherever you do the dishes or by your bedside and remember to think about the good things—the things that we can be thankful for that the Lord has given us.

Dave: And one great way to taste and see the Lord is good and to find refuge is, really dive into the Art of Marriage.

Ann: Grab a friend. This is going to be life changing.

Dave: Yes, and you will taste and see the Lord is good.

Shelby: I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski on FamilyLife Today. Dave and Ann were talking about it. Have you picked out what small group study you're going to do for your group this coming spring, or do you need a way to reconnect with your spouse or any of your couple friends? Or when you're at church, are couple friends asking you for help with their marriages? If so, I'm so excited to personally deliver this news to you.

The all-new Art of Marriage is officially here. It features a diverse array of new couples and artists who, over the course of six different sessions, unpack biblical words that describe God's love for us and how each of those words can be displayed through our messy, imperfect marriages. And yes, I'm even talking about your marriage. So, whether you're a newlywed or you've been married for decades, FamilyLife's Art of Marriage is your path to a stronger, more beautiful masterpiece of God's handiwork. So, you can go to the show notes or to learn more and order your leader kit. We're really excited to share the all-new Art of Marriage with you.

Now, coming up next week, Kevin and Marsha Myers are going to be here to discover how to navigate marital challenges, build resilience and find lasting happiness in your relationship with your spouse. That's next week. We hope you'll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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